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Parenting isn’t about control—it’s about connection. But in a world obsessed with behaviour charts and quick fixes, how do we raise emotionally healthy, grounded kids who feel safe to be themselves?

In this deeply nurturing episode, I sit down with holistic psychologist and conscious parenting expert Ashleigh Warner to explore what’s really going on beneath our children’s behaviour, why traditional discipline often misses the mark, and how presence—not perfection—creates lasting emotional safety.

We talk about tantrums, screens, dependence, and the sacred seasons of childhood. You’ll learn how to fill your child’s emotional bucket, hold space for their big feelings, and stop rushing through the very moments that matter most.

This conversation will soften your heart and remind you that parenting is not a race to independence—it’s a relationship built on trust, surrender, and love.

About Ashleigh Warner

Ashleigh Warner is a holistic psychologist, gentle parenting advocate, and mother of two. Through her popular Instagram community and online programs, she helps parents understand their child’s behaviour as communication—not defiance. Her work integrates developmental science, attachment theory, and conscious parenting, guiding families to more peace, connection, and joy at home.

In this episode we chat about:

• Ashleigh’s journey from clinical practice to becoming a holistic child psychologist (3:13)
• The common behaviour patterns she sees (4:44)
• How to look beneath our children’s behaviour to understand what’s really going on (6:22)
• Daily rituals that fill your child’s emotional bucket (9:48)
• Her thoughts on screens and how to approach them with consciousness (13:03)
• Simple ways to help your child empty their emotional bucket safely (15:18)
• Why we want our kids to feel their feelings, not just name them—and how to guide that process (16:47)
• What to do in the middle of a tantrum—without losing your cool (18:18)
• How children move through “seasons of dependence,” and how to meet these phases with surrender and grace (26:14)
• Dependency and why that’s okay (31:09)
• How to stop wishing time away and embrace the slow, sacred moments (34:05)
• What late-night parenting really looks like—and when it starts to stop (40:09)
• How to honour your child’s wish to stay close while still maintaining boundaries (42:38)
• Why tuning into your unique child matters more than following generic parenting scripts (46:35)
• Her take on rewards, consequences, and why they often backfire (52:38)
• Her homeschooling philosophy and how she’s re-imagining education from the ground up (61:07)

Episode resources:

• Mastering Your Mean Girl by Melissa Ambrosini (book)
• Open Wide by Melissa Ambrosini (book)
• Comparisonitis by Melissa Ambrosini (book)
• Time Magic by Melissa Ambrosini and Nick Broadhurst (book)
• Ashleigh Warner (Instagram)
• Raising Humans Kind (website)
• The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness by Jonathan Haidt (book)
• Why Are We Raising Our Kids With No Screens, Sugar Or Dairy? & The A’s To All Your Q’s (podcast)
• Ashleigh’s newsletter (subscribe here)

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The following transcript has been automatically generated and not checked for accuracy.

Melissa: [00:00:00] The Melissa Ambrosini Show. Welcome to the Melissa Ambrosini Show. I’m your host, Melissa bestselling author of Mastering Your Mean Girl, open, wide, comparisonitis and Time Magic. And I’m here to remind you that love is sexy, healthy is liberating, and wealthy isn’t a dirty word. Each week I’ll be getting up close and personal with thought leaders from around the globe, as well as your weekly dose of motivation so that you can create epic change in your own life and become the best version of yourself possible.

Are you ready? Beautiful. Hey, beautiful. Welcome back to the show. I am so pumped for this episode because I love all things parenting. I’m a student for life when it comes to parenting. I always wanna be growing and learning and figuring out ways of how I can do this role even better. And if you are in the [00:01:00] same boat as me, you wanna be the best, the most conscious, loving parent that you can be.

You are going to love this episode. And for those of you that have never heard of Ashley, she is a holistic family psychologist who works with parents of children struggling with aggression, anxiety, and challenging behavior. Her work is helping parents to see that they are the answer to their child’s struggles, and that there is always a connected and respectful way through.

You are going to wanna grab your pen and paper for this episode because it is gold. There are so many nuggets that you are going to walk away with. I personally had a whole page of notes after I re-listened to it, and I implemented so many things that we spoke about. And for everything that we mention in today’s episode and where the transcript is, head to melissa emini.com/ 6 7 5.

Now, without further ado, let’s dive in and bring on the incredible Ashley Warner.[00:02:00] 

Beautiful. Ashley, welcome to the show. I’m so excited to have you here. But before we dive in, can you tell us what you had for breakfast this morning? And I just realized we are so close. We could have had breakfast together. 

Ashleigh: We could have. We are just down the road. Thanks for having me, Melissa. What did I have for breakfast this morning?

I had eggs. I always have eggs. It’s the same every day. What about you? What do you have for breakfast? 

Melissa: At the moment, I’m on the smoothie train. I do oats sometimes, but like I’m on the smoothie train at the moment. It’s simple, it’s quick and it’s easy. With two little kids, I can just do it and then enjoy it and it’s just easy.

So I am pumped for this conversation because I want to be the best version of myself in every area of my life. And motherhood is one of those areas. Now, I have followed you online for a really long time, and then one of our beautiful mutual friends, Carly, shared with me that you were moving to our area [00:03:00] and we should meet up.

And I was like, yes, let’s meet up. So we met at the beach and I’ve been able to have that beautiful in real life connection with you, which is so awesome, and I’ve loved your work from afar for a really long time. But I would love to hear, before we dive into your work and how powerful it is, how did you get here?

How did you get into this work? 

Ashleigh: So I was a fairly traditional psychologist, you know, following what I’d always learned. And then as always, I had my own kids and it just throws things up in the air. It just makes you question everything. It just makes you stop and wonder, okay, what have I been taught and what of this feels right?

And a couple of years into my eldest child’s start to life, he was, he was a toddler. He started to have a really hard time. And I am one of those people that is not going to just put my head down and survive through it. And so I just went into a deep dive, essentially. I was like, why? What is happening?

What does this mean? What, why can he [00:04:00] be from such a stable, loving, healthy home and be having such a tricky time? And it just took me on this huge journey of understanding development and understanding defenses in children and understanding all of this nuance that I felt like I was never really taught and I never really understood.

And. It just changed everything. Changed everything for me. And then subsequently has changed everything for my clients because it was just a deeper look. And you know, that’s the thing when, when you’re a mom and your kid’s having a hard time, there’s nothing you won’t do. There’s no stone stone, you won’t unturn.

And so that was my experience and since then I’ve, I’ve basically been sharing that work with, with parents since then to help them through any tricky season where it feels like their kid just isn’t really thriving. 

Melissa: So what age do you usually work with and what are the common themes or behavior patterns that you see the most?

Ashleigh: Yeah, so it’s mostly kids under the ages of eight, and I work mostly with kids with [00:05:00] aggression, anxiety, and challenges. Challenges just where their kids aren’t feeling settled, you know, maybe it comes up in aggression, maybe it comes up in clinging. Maybe it comes up in constant whining or constant meltdowns, but where generally it’s the mom that just knows my kid is not feeling settled.

And so however that looks my work is through help parents get beneath that and get to what is actually at the root cause. 

Melissa: Yes. So I mean, I grew up in a very different household. Like it was so different to how we’re raising our children and something that your work has really shone a bright light on for me is like, it’s not about the behavior, it’s not about the tantrum.

It’s not about the meltdown and us saying Stop whining or stop. Like it’s what is underneath that. What is underneath that? Because no one acts like [00:06:00] that. And I think about us as adults, like no one acts like that unless there is some other thing going on, a story or something else that’s going on underneath that.

And when like, I had that really big light bulb moment and I shared it with Nick, we were like, of course. Like of course. Like it seems so simple. So how can we get underneath for what is going on for our children and really help them and support them? Like what do we do? 

Ashleigh: Yeah. Okay. So the way that I talk about it, just to make it really simple, is that I, I suggest parents look at the behavior, the symptoms.

So that’s often the thing that you want to stop, right? The thing that’s driving you crazy, you think, oh my gosh, if I could stop anything, it’s this behavior. Can you give some examples? So aggression is a big one, so hitting, kicking, spitting, yelling, screaming. In terms of more like alarm based behavior, it might be like clinging on, not letting mum [00:07:00] go to the other room, not letting her go anywhere.

It might be. Defiance, like really not being able to gain cooperation easily, just no to everything, lots of meltdowns. Those are the things that parents generally probably struggle with most commonly. And as you said, kids don’t want to do that. They’re not. It’s something else is going on. And so the way that I get parents to look at it is, okay, well let’s first look at the emotion beneath, because I think that we are in a, a generation of parents where we understand emotions are important.

We want our children to be able to express them. We are really good at validating feelings. We are really good at, like, we’ve got a lot of language, so we understand nervous system dysregulation. A lot of parents will talk to ’em about their children being sensory seekers, like we have this really complex language.

But what I found with parents is they don’t actually understand. The basics of how to work with an emotion in a child. So what does it actually mean? Validating an emotion is not necessarily going to make it [00:08:00] shift. And so I work with parents and help them understand that actually working with an emotion in a child is actually kind of simple.

And I, I give an analogy of like a bucket filler and a bucket releaser. So you imagine there are things in a child’s life that are going to generate emotional energy. They’re going to kind of fill up their child, their child’s body with emotion. When that child’s all filled up with emotion, just like us as adults, it’s going to be reflected back in challenging behavior.

So we have to think about. Like a bucket analogy. We have to get that emotion out of the body. We have to help our children actually release it, and we have to make sure that there’s not too many things that stress them out, that build just too much emotion. Otherwise that bucket’s gonna fill, and it doesn’t matter how much we are releasing it, that bucket’s just going to keep filling.

So I just like that really simple analogy of asking parents, okay, well what are the things in your child’s life that are activating emotion, that are generating emotional energy and filling up your child’s bucket? And are we helping them release it enough? Because I think that we just get too [00:09:00] bogged down in fancy words in psychological terms, and we’re not actually remembering this very basic analogy.

And so then I teach parents, okay, well what are the types of things that will generate emotion? In children and what are the types of things will actually help them shift that emotion. So I call those bucket releases and that’s about really allowing their tears. It’s about allowing those tears to come out and move through that cycle because you know, especially those vulnerable, sad, disappointed tears, they actually hold the stress hormones in them.

And so when those tears come out, that the stress from that child is literally coming out of the body. So we are emptying that emotional bucket, and so we are really getting to the root cause of what might otherwise have been reflected back in challenging behavior. 

Melissa: It’s like us, we feel so good after a big cry or a big release.

Okay, so can you talk about what are some of the things that can fill their bucket? Talk about the daily things that could add to the bucket, and then I wanna know how we can release it. 

Ashleigh: [00:10:00] Okay, so screens is a big one that is really important for little kids. It’s very overstimulating and can really generate a lot of emotion in children’s bodies.

This is especially important by the time we get to talking about five, six, 7-year-old boys who are aggressive and video games is one of the quickest interventions we can make is take those out. Separations is really important as well. So separations is one of the, the, probably the most common one when we’re talking about little children, because little children actually have very little tolerance for separation from their PA primary caregivers.

And then as each year goes on, they get a little bit more tolerance for that separation. However, depending on what else is going on in their life, depending on what else is happening, that separation will actually, there’ll be less tolerance for it. So that can be a really tricky one and probably one of the most common ones that I see.

Family stress. So how, how, okay. Are we. How much are we holding this? [00:11:00] How much are we sending off the message that says, I’ve got enough in me to care for you? And that energetic space that we are in is really, really important for children. The social expectations that we put on kids. So often we expect kids to spend a lot of time with other immature children, and that can be really, really tricky depending on their temperament, depending on a lot of things.

But that can be an inherently vulnerable experience to spend many hours a day with a lot of other immature kids who are going to be bossy or leave you out or not inclusive because they’re also just learning. And so sometimes social, the social expectations we put on little people is, is a really big bucket filler.

And then schedules. A lot of children are really busy. You know, they’re taken from preschool to some afterschool activity to something else, and they don’t have any time for play. And play is one of the most important ways that they can actually transform that emotional energy inside of their body. [00:12:00] And one of the best ways that they can rest.

And when we are moving them from A to B all the time, that they don’t have that time to play. So they’re the, they’re the five, what I call bucket fillers. And they’re the things that are most commonly generating a lot of emotion. And they’re the things that I, I teach parents to just really look at and explore and question in their own child.

Melissa: I love that. I feel like if we wrote them down, stuck them on the fridge, and each day we could kind of just like check in and go, okay, cool. Are they overscheduled today? Do we need to cancel something? Okay, how’s my energy? How’s my stress? Like I love this little five s check-in each day. Instead of like, if your child is having a big tantrum or a meltdown, you can kind of like look at that list and go, ah, okay, we’re overscheduled, I’m stressed, whatever it is.

Too many screens. I just love this little checklist for all parents. It’s an amazing tool to kind of just go, ah, [00:13:00] that is why that’s playing out the way that it is playing out. So talk to me, we don’t have to go too much into it because I’ve spoken about it on the podcast, but talk about screens. Like, what are your thoughts?

Are you a zero screen? Are you a little bit, are you a slow TV person? Like what have you seen the like I wanna say. Okay. You know what I mean? 

Ashleigh: Well, I think this is what this is. What I really resist is the idea that we can talk about what’s okay and not okay. And what I always encourage parents to do is say, you have to look at your child because 90, let’s for example, say 90% of kids are okay with screens.

If your kid is in the 10% that isn’t, it’s irrelevant to you that most kids are okay. So you have to really look at your own child and your own child’s behavior and how settled they are and, and really explore and be curious and stay open. Because one of the things I think that parents can get stuck into is, oh, but I just need that [00:14:00] break.

I just need that 30 minutes, or I just need that. And, and what I see time and time again is that if screen is that key bucket filler for your child, that 30 minutes is making more trouble than it’s worth because the behavioral implications of that make your life so much harder than that 30 minutes that you get.

Of a break. And so really, I think it’s always about experimenting. It’s always about taking things out, being brave, saying, okay, for a couple of weeks I’m gonna completely remove it and then look at my child, what’s changed, what’s different. And I think this is especially important if we’ve got aggression issues and there’s video games, like it’s the first thing I would say, cut it out, see what happens, and just, and just stay curious because every kid is really unique.

So with my own kids, my kids can tolerate some slow TV issues. I’m very picky about what they can watch, especially when they were little. Like preschooler age, but you know, it’s short, it’s small, it’s slow paced and that, you know, I don’t notice any [00:15:00] changes for that. So if they wanna watch that sometimes that’s fine.

But again, yeah, I think it’s always about tuning into our children. 

Melissa: Yes, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. If you are noticing things, then it’s time to look at those five S’s and see what you can shift or remove. So those are the bucket fillers. Now how do we help them support them, hold space for them to empty their buckets?

Ashleigh: So this is about finding child friendly ways that actually shift emotional energy. So that’s about play, it’s about playfulness. It’s about getting their bodies to move to the point of fatigue, especially if we’ve got little boys, they really need to move a lot and get physically exhausted to the point where they’re like bone tired.

That’s the way that they shift that emotional energy. And then meltdown. Sometimes we have to write out a meltdown. Sometimes it just gets all too much and it just comes out in a meltdown. But when we can. And then the other one is those tears. So I, I [00:16:00] tend to differentiate between like a meltdown. So those ragey tears and these soft, vulnerable.

Disappointed, sad tears because they are really important and we want those almost every day. If we can get them, they are really important to hold space for and allow our children to grieve, to accept loss, to accept change. And they come out in the tears. And that’s a really important part of a child resetting their nervous system.

So, but the more we can put in that movement, the more we can have play, the more we can have playfulness, the more we can do these things and integrate them into our lives naturally, the less we need to have those explosive, big meltdowns. And it’s not that you won’t ever have them or get them, but you know, you don’t want them to be all the time.

Melissa: Yes. Okay. And so you say getting your children to feel their feelings rather than name them is the answer to the challenging behavior. So how do we do that? And can you talk about why that is the case? 

Ashleigh: Yeah, so I think as a [00:17:00] generation who’s so conscious of feelings and emotions, that we’ve got into a bit of a habit of talking too much, and we’ve got a bit into a bit of a habit of labeling every single thing and validating every single emotion.

And sometimes what happens is kids just kind of, they get a little bit lost and they, you know, they might have the language for it, but they’re not necessarily feeling. And so this is something that comes up in my work all the time, where children will be able to describe every single emotion, and they’ll be able to tell you the name of every single emotion.

But if I dig a little bit deeper, they’re not necessarily crying or they’re not necessarily feeling an emotion like remorse. They’re not necessarily moving themselves into anything that feels too vulnerable and that I see as a huge problem if we start to have kids who can talk, who can tell stories, who can name things, but they’re not feeling anything that makes them feel vulnerable.

Then we’ve got it wrong. And so that’s why I say to parents, okay, let’s pull back less talking, less labeling, less naming in the moment, and [00:18:00] just be there. Just be present. Because often when we are talking too much, our children will move out of that process and they will start to just get in their head and start to go, oh yes, I am feeling sad, but am I now talking about feeling sad?

Or am I actually releasing my sad tears? Because there’s a big difference. 

Melissa: Yes. Yeah. So let’s get practical. Your child is having a meltdown. A tantrum. What are you doing? Like, are you holding them? Are you next to them? Are you, what are you saying in the moment? Like, let’s get really practical. 

Ashleigh: Okay. Well. It completely depends.

So if you have a child who is unsafe, who, when they have meltdowns, they’re aggressive, they’re hurting somebody, then your first job is to maintain safety. And sometimes that means physically holding them. Sometimes it means picking them up and moving them into a room. I think wherever possibly we want to stay present and stay with them, because obviously they’re having a really hard time.[00:19:00] 

But the first thing, and, and what’s most important is that we’re keeping other children safe and, and making sure that they’re not hurting themselves or anybody else. And then in terms of the newest nuance of what we’re doing, by the time we get to a meltdown, mostly we’re writing it out. So how do we keep everybody safe?

If, if there is things that we can say that is helpful, but you know, mostly at that point kids aren’t hearing you. They’re not, they’re way too overwhelmed. And so maybe you’ve got your hand on their back if that feels supportive for them. Maybe you’re just sitting and you’re giving them a bit of distance, but you’re there and you’re present.

And really it’s about you just managing your own emotions that come forward so that you can be present and they can just ride this out and, and you know, if there were meltdowns happening regularly and all the time, then I would be wanting to go back to what’s going on in their environment. What can we actually shift maybe a little bit different If we’re talking about two year olds, they happen pretty regularly.

But if we are talking about older children and yeah, so it’s, it’s nuanced and it [00:20:00] depends, but really meltdowns are about keeping everybody safe and staying connected to your own body so you can support them through that co-regulation. 

Melissa: Yeah. Beautiful. Yep. And I notice like the more work I do on myself, like daily and, and making sure I’m okay, I’m able to be that really strong, sturdy foundation for Bambi.

If I am completely exhausted, if I am feeling empty, I notice my nervous system. Like it’s, and I’m like, okay, I’ll give Nick the look. And I’m like, you gotta come in here like tag, like you know, I need to go take some deep breaths. Or he might even see that I need to like tap out for a second. So this is why it’s so important that we’re taking care of ourselves, that we’re our nervous systems, that we feel regulated, that we are breathing deeply, that we are, you know, doing whatever it is for us to balance ourselves.

Like this is so [00:21:00] important. And you know, I talked to Bambi about that. Like, I’m meditating, I love meditating, I love deep breathing ’cause it really makes me feel good in my body. You know, things like that. So it’s so important. That piece is so important for the mamas and the papas. It’s so important. Like it is key.

Ashleigh: And sometimes I say to parents, you know, the same thing as I say to kids. Like, sometimes you just have to have your tears. Sometimes you just have to cry about some days are hard and that’s okay. And release it and get it out, and you’ll wake up the next day with a new level of capacity for your children.

But the, sometimes I think the resisting of the hard and the resisting of our own feelings. Like I know that we, I know that so much we talk about filling ourselves up and self care. And what I often talk to parents about is actually, it’s often about releasing your own emotions. Really being able to let it out and feel and shift it in whatever way works for you.

Whether that’s breathing, whether that’s having a cry, whether that’s moving your body so that then your nervous system is more open and, and that [00:22:00] capacity to hold whatever it is that they bring to you. 

Melissa: A thousand percent. I know for me, two things that really move the needle for this season of my life with two little kids is sleep.

I prioritize sleep like my life depends on it because it does, like my kids are in bed at seven and I will finish cleaning up and I am straight into bed after that. Like I might finish cleaning up in, in 15 minutes and that means I’m in bed at seven 15. Like for this season of my life, that is what I need to do.

Ashleigh: Yeah, I did that with my second child. It was, it was in bed at seven 30 for the first year of his life because I was at breastfeeding and I had both kids the whole next day and there was no other way to get the amount of sleep I needed other than just to be in bed early. And I think sometimes we resist those, those.

Practices or those simple shifts, sometimes we resist them and actually they’re the things that can change it and make things so much easier. 

Melissa: Totally. So that’s one for me that is just an absolute essential is getting into bed early and like really [00:23:00] making sure my sleep hygiene is, is good. And then the other thing for me is my own therapy, like you said, like having my own tears.

So whether that is with a coach or a mentor or a therapist, like having a therapy session at the moment I’m doing weekly and that is really working for me. But even if you don’t have someone that you pay, you can chat to a friend, you can journal, journal is self therapy, you know, just getting our emotions out and, and really processing what’s going on for ourselves like that and combine those two with meditation and deep, like some deep breaths then like.

I feel you’re good. Yeah, I’m good. I’m good. You ready? Gone on my, you know, two and a half hour morning routines. You know, not this season, just not this season. If I can take a few deep breaths before I get out of bed, or whilst I’m in the shower or driving or whatever it is, and. Getting those other things 

Ashleigh: or in, you know, in integration with our [00:24:00] children.

This is something that I talk to parents about all the time, is that I think pre-kids, we can compartmentalize everything. We can have this routine, we can have this and that there is a level of integration that we need to find with our family. How do we get our needs met at the same time as we have our children at our feet?

And how do we actually do those practices and prioritize moving our body or be, it’s not going to feel the same as if you’re quiet and on your own, but if breathing is the thing, how can you do it with children beside you? And I think that, yeah, it has to be about asking ourselves because we often won’t prioritize it when we’re finally on our own.

But if we can integrate it into our day and integrate it into our space with our children, they see us doing it and then, and it becomes more of a, more of a reality. 

Melissa: Yeah. I think when I’m finally on my own, which we try and do, you know, on like a Saturday or a Sunday where. Prince has a two hour sleep in the afternoon, sometimes longer.

And so Papa and Bambi [00:25:00] leave the house. And so when I’m like, I get that chunk on a Sunday, like all I wanna do is lay down. I just wanna lay down. Like I don’t wanna do all the things. So yes, I am a huge fan of like twice a week my kids come to the gym with us. We have family gym time, so we are very, very lucky that our gym allows children to come and they’re running around and playing and, well not Prince, but Bambi’s running around and playing and he’s just like, you know, on the floor and on his little mat.

And I’m so glad that I can do that. Or I do a little workout while they’re there, or I breathe while they’re there. You know. One second, honey, my husband’s alarm is going off. Gimme one sec. 

Ashleigh: Okay. Go. 

Melissa: That is so funny and I feel like we should keep that in because his alarm said breathe. He puts reminders in his Apple watch, integrating it into everyday life.

He’s take deep breaths, drink water, like he’s got ones that say, drink water. Take deep breaths. I love that. If 

Ashleigh: I ever [00:26:00] try that, I never read it. Yeah. It just goes up and my It doesn’t, don’t actually pay attention. 

Melissa: Yeah. I’m the same. I’m like, I don’t need any more notifications. Like I don’t want any, but like for him it works.

Ashleigh: It works. 

Melissa: Yeah, it works. It’s amazing. Okay, so I love that. Now you also talk about how children have a season or seasons of dependence. Can you talk about that and also how we can turn that into a spiritual practice of surrender to really honor that. 

Ashleigh: Yeah, this has been life changing for me. So I first understood this from the work of Dr.

Gordon Neufeld, who is just incredible when it comes to helping us understand what it really means to understand attachment and what our children need developmentally. And he talks about this idea that attachment actually takes six years to deepen. And most of us, I think, have this six month, one year idea, and it’s actually six years.

And this process of [00:27:00] requiring that deepening of attachment, but also this season of immaturity means that they really need us and they really need to be allowed to depend on us. And it is that. Us honoring that dependence that actually creates this drive for them for natural independence. So the way that it works with human children is that they need us, they require us.

We allow that, and then they have this inner drive that naturally forms when they as satiated where they are ready to go out. 

Melissa: I just wanted to say one thing because I spoke to Carly about this, our mutual friend, because her daughter and my daughter are, they’re similar ages. And I remember last year sitting on the beach having a conversation with Carly about how Bambi wants to be by my side.

And Carly’s like, this is a good thing. And I was like, is it like, because I didn’t understand? And she’s like, yes, honey, this [00:28:00] is a very good thing. And I was like, oh, okay. Like, and it actually really helped me. Because I was like, oh no, is she like, I didn’t say this, but I’m like, is she shy? Like, what’s going on?

Like why does she not feel confident to go and play with other kids? Because what happened was, this was last year, we was sitting on the beach, it was like the second half of last year I was pregnant and for the first time I’d broken my ankle. So I was sitting up on the grass and then you have to walk on the grass and then down the sand to get on the beach.

And I couldn’t walk down onto the sand. And so I said to Bambi, would you like to go with Carly down to the edge of the water and, and sit with poet and Carly? And for the first time she left my side and I’ve got full goose births. I was like, Carly, she’s never done that. And Carly’s like, wow, like that’s a big thing.

And I was so excited for her. And now she still wants to be close to me. But yes, please keep explaining this because. I didn’t [00:29:00] understand this, and this has changed so much for me. 

Ashleigh: Yeah. Yeah. And I think understanding how long it truly takes, like it’s a six to seven give or take, depending on your child process, year process, and it, you know, they get these ways of being able to be more and more ready to be away from us and, and have more independence.

But it’s not, it’s not linear, right? So if something else comes in, you know, like this often happens with little preschoolers. They might understand, they might start to figure out death, right? They go, oh my gosh, like, like somebody in their pet dies or somebody in their life dies and they start to realize that death is a a, an option, a possibility.

So then they take two steps back closer to you. So sometimes even just in this natural growth of them learning about the world and understanding things, they take two steps out and then they go, oh, this is a bit much, I’m gonna take a step back closer to you. And so it’s, it’s this dance, this constant dance, but we get so confused in our society that we believe we have to [00:30:00] push them away.

Or they’ll always be shy or they’ll always be clingy. And actually it’s, it’s not, it’s the allowing of them to need us, which is a lot. And this is where I say the spiritual practice comes in because we can go, okay, I’m done. I need a bit more space. And actually, where can we. Where can we soften in that?

How can we actually open our heart to this small child who has this really long need for a season of dependence? And how can we trust that and how can we be open to that and how can we deal with the discomfort and the, the, you know, whatever comes up, the fears that come up inside of us rather than quickly moving to pushing them away.

Because they will. And I’ve got a 7-year-old now who, you know, happily will leave my side, happily go off as long as he needs to. It’s a very different season. But shyness is a really normal part of, of early childhood and not [00:31:00] something we need to fear or, or stamp out. 

Melissa: I love this so much because it was, like I said, a game changer for me, an absolute game changer.

So is it more so dependent toward the mother or have you seen. Children, you know, do this to the father or, or, yeah, I’d love your thoughts on that. 

Ashleigh: Yeah, look, I think it’s more so to the mother, you know, the reality is, I think it’s more to, more so to the mother. The reality that I see is that the birthing mother, there is a, a smaller tolerance for separation from the birthing mother than any other caregiver.

No matter how brilliant those other people are, it’s not about how, like I have the most devoted husband father that has ever walked the planet, and yet, and so now my kids at four and seven, it’s probably a lot more even, but still with my 4-year-old, it would not be the same. Probably with my 7-year-old, he could probably tolerate the same amount of separation from both of us now, [00:32:00] but.

It just, it takes years for that to be the case. And I see that whether mothers are breastfeeding or whether they’re bottle feeding, that doesn’t seem to make a difference. But it seems to be this, this relationship, this bond with the birthing mother that the child just really needs you and needs more time with you.

And that’s tricky. Like you and I are the breadwinners. Like that makes it a tricky juggle. But I think the more that we can lean in and understand that and accept that and share that with women as normal and okay and it won’t be forever, the more that I think that we can work, work within. 

Melissa: Yes, my spiritual teacher and mentor, he calls it the season of devotion.

He’s like, Melissa, you’re in the season of devotion. And you know, my husband, if he could see that like both children are like wanting me and I’m like, like about to pop. He is like, they both need you honey. He’s like, you are their safe harbor. And I’m like, yes. And what an honor. What an honor and what a privilege to be someone’s [00:33:00] safe harbor.

And you know that Instagram meme that goes around, I’m sure you’ve seen it where it says one day the house will be clean, one day you’ll sleep through the night one day. You know? And every time I see it, I cry because like one day the house will be quiet and like, it makes me, it makes me so emotional, just even saying it now, because we wish the times away sometimes, like the hard times.

And I’ve been there and I’ve like, ah, I like felt angry. And then I’m like, I will miss this so much. One day when my house is clean and I’m sleeping to the night, and like I will miss it so much. And so for me, it’s like just surrendering into it. Babe, like, I don’t know if you saw, but we just recently sold three of our businesses.

Ashleigh: Wow. 

Melissa: We sold the businesses because I’m like, I wanna be there [00:34:00] more, even though I am there a lot, like I wanna be there even more. And so how can we flip the script and instead of seeing it like, oh, you know, oh, it’s, I just want some space for me, or, oh, I just need a breath. It’s like, what an honor to have some beautiful little angel so reliant on you and, and you are there.

Safe harbor. Like I just think about that. Like, I am their comfort. I am their warm blanket. And you know, I’ve, I’ve shared with you that Bambi’s been waking in the night since we’ve moved house a few times in the last couple of months. And since Prince has arrived, she’s been waking. And at the start I was like, how am I going to do this?

I’m breastfeeding through the night. Prince needs me, Bambi. And then so Nick started going in and then she’s like, I want mama. And I’m like, how do [00:35:00] I do this? So like there’s sometimes where I would pick him up, go breastfeed next to her in the room, and then I just stopped. ’cause I was so bone tired that I was like, Nick, please, can you go into her?

I was so bone tired that it got to a point where I was like, I’ll do it. And so I do her every night. Like last night I was in there at 1230. When she called out, she was probably awake for about 45 minutes. Sometimes she goes straight back to sleep. You know, and I’m laying there and I’m like freezing cold on top of the douna, freezing cold.

I’m like, I just wanna go back to bed. I’m like, she needs me. Like she needs me right now. Just breathe into it, Melissa. It’ll be okay. I’ll be okay. But she needs me. And so like constantly just having that conversation with myself, reminding myself of that meme, that Instagram meme that’s going [00:36:00] around, and that helps me so much.

Ashleigh: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, I love the word you used before and I, I say this all the time, it’s, you know, it’s devotion and I think sometimes we can see it as sacrifice, but it’s actually, it’s devotion and it is the greatest spiritual practice you will ever have. Parenting at nighttime is like nothing.

You know, I’ve done it for passionate, sit a hundred hours, 10 hours a day, cold hard floor, like nothing on the nighttime parenting and the. Work that it requires to notice the story as you start to tell yourself, to notice what you start to make this mean, to resist what is coming up for you in this moment.

And I think, you know, something I talk a lot about with my clients too, is the story that we make around fatigue. So I think we should all be trying to get as much sleep as possible and, and you know, I believe that, but it doesn’t make any sense to me. And this mindset [00:37:00] shift really shifted things for me.

It doesn’t make any sense to me that as a mother, especially a breastfeeding mother of a young child, that I will somehow be damaged by being up in the middle of the night like that biologically evolutionary, like that makes no sense to me. If a baby, if it’s completely developmentally normal for a baby to wake in the night and require my milk, then there is something in me that has the capacity to do that.

Nature didn’t design it in this way where it would damage me, but my kid would need it. Right? So that mindset shift for me was, was a really important one. That actually my body will be okay. It is completely okay for me to get up in the night and, and breastfeed and nurture my children because if they require it, then I’m, I’m built for it.

A hundred percent. 

Melissa: A hundred percent babe. Like the mindset piece is huge. And thank you for sharing that. So for me, it was interesting because Bambi [00:38:00] was an amazing sleeper. Like she’s slept seven till seven, she’s amazing. And then when I went back into newborn and then also having a toddler who was waking, I was like, what is going on?

And no matter what happened in my night, how many times I was up, like when I was getting like two hour blocks of sleep. Whatever happened the next day, I always felt totally fine. Like sure, there may have been days where I was like, whew, okay. A bit more tired than usual. But when that sun rose, I felt fine.

It was in the night when I was getting woken up. 

Ashleigh: And the stories you make it mean and the fear of the fatigue. Yeah. I won’t cope tomorrow when I’m tired. 

Melissa: Yes. I would feel a bit nauseous sometimes. Like I’d feel, you know, that hungover like nauseous feeling, I would feel like shocked because you know, you’re in a deep sleep and then you get woken ups.

Not comfortable. I don’t wanna dismiss it. It’s not [00:39:00] comfortable. Totally not comfortable. It is like a form of torture for sure. And the stories are a huge piece. So like I remember laying there. Just going, this is so bad for me. I am a health expert. Like I know how important sleep is. I’m gonna get gray hair.

I would just go around and round and then I would be scared and fearful, like, what is this doing to me? And he’s like, nothing. You were built for this. That is one of the most amazing things about women. We were built for this. And yes, sleep is important. Definitely not dismissing 

Ashleigh: that, but I think it’s that added layer.

It’s, yes, it’s hard. Yes, it’s uncomfortable. I don’t wanna dismiss that. And the layer that we add to it, when we tell the stories about how bad it is for us, or how it will impact our health, adds another layer of suffering that that’s the part we have control over a hundred percent. So 

Melissa: I hope that helps a lot of mamas out there that [00:40:00] are up in the night and tending to their beautiful children, because it really helped me.

The mindset piece really helped me and still helps me when I’m getting up. And something else that you, Sean lied on for me was I saw an Instagram story. Like I don’t look at stories a lot. Right? And I saw one of yours a couple of weeks ago and you said, I’m curious, when did the nighttime parenting stop for you?

And I remember going nighttime parenting. I’m like, what is she talking about? Nighttime parenting? And then I realized, I was like, oh, what I’m doing with Bambi essentially is nighttime parenting when I get up in the night and I’m curious ’cause I never saw the response that came back. 

Ashleigh: So four to seven years was the, the common responses when it stopped, when you were no longer needed at night and your child would sleep through and, and not be calling out or not need something.

The most common res responses were four to seven [00:41:00] and. And, you know, there was some outliers of, oh, my baby just slept through the night at one or whatever. And, and you know, some other kids who were nine and, but the most common was four to seven. ’cause I’d heard somebody say, we need to stop lying to women.

We need to remi, we need to let them know it’s actually five years. And I thought, oh, five years. Okay. And then I asked my audience and, and that was pretty much, they said the most common responses were four to seven years. 

Melissa: Interesting. So interesting. Because yeah, like you think, okay, once you night wean, whenever that is, then they’re slipping through the night.

And granted like that happened with Bambi. Like when I eventually night weaned her, I think she was about one I night weaned her, and then she slept through the night and it’s literally only at four when after moving house a couple of times. And she went into her big bed and we moved house and then Prince came along.

Ashleigh: And that’s that dance, right? Yes. So, [00:42:00] ah, there’s more independence, there’s more change, there’s more separation. Okay, I’m going to naturally pull back to mom ’cause that’s my safe place. And that dance is the most beautiful dance if we can honor it. And then she’ll take in time when she’s ready, she’ll take her steps away again, and then something else will happen and she’ll come back closer to you.

And that dance towards independence is, is fluid and changing. And but, but when we can honor it, she will develop that beautiful, true independence, not Mum k whip me away and shut me out. But this desire for I am ready, I’m satiated, I’m filled up, I’m ready to go and explore the world. 

Melissa: Yes. Yep. Okay. So I’d love your thoughts on this.

Like, where’s the line between, like, for example, Bambi went to gymnastics or going to something that I’ve paid for playgroup or gymnastics, which. You go with her. Like, and at this moment, and I’ve gone with her up until, you know, six months ago, I’ve gone to every one [00:43:00] of them. And now our nanny will sometimes take her to playgroup or papa or gymnastics.

Right. And so, ’cause I’m here, ’cause I’m breastfeeding and you know, prince is sleeping. So, you know, there’s sometimes where she’s like, I don’t wanna go. I wanna stay with you, mama. I wanna stay with you. There’s moments where I can kind of like talk to her about it. I love you. I’m, I’m gonna be working. And then as soon as you get home we can play.

I give her cuddles, I fill her love tank up. I’ve given her little love heart stickers that we press on if you want. Mama’s love. Like, we’ve done all of that. And then I’m like, is that pushing her away? Like, you know, as soon as she’s gone she’s fine and she ends up having the best time. But I’m curious to hear your thoughts like, in that moment, should I have like honored her?

Saying that, or you know, a little bit of encouragement. Okay. Do you know what I mean? 

Ashleigh: Yeah, yeah. It’s such a dance. It’s such a hard, it’s such a hard question to answer. I think we always need to be looking [00:44:00] at not how are our children immediately before or immediately after when we push or we nudge. But how are they over the week?

So is she settled? Is she sleeping well? Is she eating well? Do you feel this sense that yes, my kid is on track, she could do with a little nudge, or is actually she telling me with all of her other behavior and her ability to communicate, she’s not settled. And then why do I need to nudge? Then we need to ask ourself.

Maybe I do need to nudge because actually I have a podcast to record and I actually need these two hours and this is our family money and this is, you know, this is just the reality that we have. And then in that situation, you probably need to nudge. But if there are other situations where, you know, I’ve paid for playgroup and you know, I always say to parents, I would.

I, I think it’s a little bit different. Normally when we are going with the children, they will go, but especially when it’s an independent activity, I would say don’t, don’t sign up for anything until your child is seven, unless you’re willing to lose your money. And that is a blanket [00:45:00] rule I give because your child doesn’t have the capacity to understand commitment.

I’ve said I would go, therefore I’ll go even on a hard days, like at four, they don’t have that capacity. So when we put them in that situation, I think that we have to be prepared to say, okay, I’ll sign up for this event for the term. But it may not flow in the way that I thought it would. And I think when they’re a little bit older, we have the the capacity to say to them, actually, this is what commitment is and this is really important and you said you were gonna do it, therefore we’re going to do it even if it’s hard.

You know? And that nudge is okay, but I think we have to be mindful about, about what age that starts. 

Melissa: Interesting. Yeah. So I’ve never done any drop offs with her. Like never left her anywhere. Yeah. The gymnastics, you go with her ballet go with her. But that’s a, a good reminder to, if you’re gonna sign up for something, be prepared to not go every week.

And that’s why I stopped ballet because we were going and she just wanted to sit on my lap the whole time. And I was [00:46:00] like, at the start, I was getting frustrated internally. I was like, I’ve paid for this. 

Ashleigh: Yeah. But she’s four. She wants to play, she wants to hang out with their mom. She wants to, you know, maybe be at the beach.

She doesn’t need any of those activities. She probably doesn’t desire them. And then we make it mean so much more than it has to mean. And she will want them when she’s older, there will be a shift and she will be saying, mom, take me to ballet. Yes, 

Melissa: exactly. And I really do think we over schedule them. Way too much.

Yes. Way too much. So yeah, this has all been so helpful. Can you talk about how we can focus more on attuning to our unique child rather than following like the parenting scripts or rules? 

Ashleigh: Yeah, so I think that that’s that idea that we, we kind of talked about it with screens of like, what’s okay, what’s not okay.

So we can, you know, there’s been a heated debate lately about daycare and there’s been some comments that have circled around some pretty high-end podcasts saying that [00:47:00] it’s, it’s bad and it’s gonna cause mental health issues. And then everybody’s pushing back on that and saying, no, it’s fine. And there’s just these really polarizing conversations.

And you know, what I say to parents is it’s honestly, it’s irrelevant. Like it doesn’t matter what the majority of kids can or cannot handle, it’s about tuning into your child. It’s about each week, checking in and going, how is my kid? Is she settled? Is she thriving? Is she doing okay? What can I tweak? What can I shift?

And not overthinking that if I’m a respectful parent, I have to do X, Y, Z. Or if I’m a conscious parent, I have to do X, Y, or Z because. The more that you in this game, the more you realize like, that doesn’t matter. It’s how your child is and how they feel. And I think there are a lot of rules, you know, respectful parents, for example.

Never do consequences. Never do rewards. And, and I don’t not, I like, I agree with that overall, but I think sometimes it’s simplistic. And I think [00:48:00] sometimes parents get caught in the, this is how I will parent. Instead of coming back to actually tuning into what does my child need right now? What does my child need me to do?

What does my child need me to shift about their environment? What isn’t working for them? How can I grow more capacity to show up for them? And, and I think that that always has to be our work rather than the, the rules of Instagram and the scripts that we’re following of somebody else’s. 

Melissa: I wanna talk about rewards and consequences, but I also wanted to touch on, I know for me personally, like.

For this season in my life, I have to simplify my life so that I have more capacity to hold space for two tiny humans. And so I have completely accepted like that. My social life is, you know, like it’s very, very small. And it’s just this [00:49:00] season, you know, like I find for me, if I am jam packed, I have less capacity for my children and that’s not how I wanna live my life.

I wanna be a present patient, playful mama. I know the mother that I wanna be, but when I am jam packed, I can’t show up as that mother. And so this is a reminder as well, like what can you remove from your calendar? What can you say? A loving, no thank you to right now. Like I say, no to so many things that present themselves to my inbox each week.

Amazing opportunities, like amazing speaking gigs all over the world. Amazing hosting retreats in South Africa on safari, like amazing opportunities. And for this season in my life, I’m like, it’s a [00:50:00] loving, no thank you. Like I, I look at my calendar, I live by my digital calendar. Like Nick and I share a calendar.

We can see what each of us are doing. Like I’m in pink, he’s in blue. And then everything to do with the family’s in yellow. And I want to see as much white space as I possibly can in my week because that for me allows me to exhale. And go, great. But when I see so much back to back, like I instantly am like, whoa, okay.

And something that we do is like the night after the kids have gone to bed at seven o’clock, we sit and we look at the calendar for the next day and we just go, okay, cool. Oh, okay. I need you to just have like this morning I was like, okay, I’ve got an interview at nine 30 with Ashley. Can you please have both children for 15 minutes while I do my hair and makeup?

And I put it in his calendar so that he can’t book a meeting, you know, unless we’ve got the nanny here or something. So working [00:51:00] together as a team is really important. And then also simplifying your life, if that’s true for you. I mean, don’t do anything I say if it’s not true for you, but that’s what’s true for me and that’s what’s really helped me.

Ashleigh: Yeah. Well I think it’s about finding what is true for you, but what is your priority and what will make you feel most nourished? Because I’m not gonna feel nourished if my kids are off. Like, I could be succeeding in my career and, you know, but if my kids are struggling, I don’t feel settled when my head hits the pillow at night.

And this is the majority of the story for the women I work with. And so I have, you know, a same like let go of incredible opportunity, like book publication deals where I’ve said, no, I, I won’t be able to do that well and do this well. And right now this is my priority. And I think that we, you know, this, the saying I’ve loved hearing from older women is you can have it all, it will just come at different seasons and it may not come all in that season when you are a mother of small babies.

[00:52:00] And I think that, that, that story is such a powerful one and something that I’ve really held true for me, and it won’t be true for everybody, but it has been a way where I can say, yeah, I’m gonna say, I’m gonna let go of that because this can’t come again. This season can’t come again. But that book deal in time will come again 

Melissa: a hundred percent.

And also I’m a big believer, yes, you can have it all too. And I feel like when you’ve got tiny humans, it may just take a little bit longer as well, 

Ashleigh: or look slightly different. Like I still feel like I have it all. I’m not feeling like I don’t have it all. It just looks different to what I might’ve said all would be at a different season of life.

Exactly. 

Melissa: Now, talk to us about consequences and rewards. Do they work or is it dependent on each child? What are your thoughts 

Ashleigh: overall like? I think we wanna stick clear from it if we can. You know, it’s, it’s not a, it doesn’t feel good to be, you do this, you can get that, you do this, I’ll take that away. You do this constantly punishing.

It’s not a, [00:53:00] a tone in the home that I think will feel great for many parents and children. And I think that there are a lot of other ways we can gain cooperation. You know, I think when children are little. The majority of the time, you’re gaining cooperation through playfulness, but under the age of five, you are brushing your teeth by making funny songs and you are pretending to be dinosaurs as you go to the bathroom.

And that playfulness, again, it’s a season, it won’t last forever. I don’t need to do that with my 7-year-old. But when we are talking about a two or three and a 4-year-old, the majority of the ways that you are going to gain cooperation is by being funny and by being playful and by changing your energy.

But, and I think that if you get into this habit of do this and I’ll give you this, it, it can, it’s not gonna feel great in the home, but the, I guess the, where I see it is people can just get stuck in these rigid rules. Like I can never use a consequence. And that, I guess I just wanna throw that out. Like I just don’t think it’s that simple.

Again, not that I do that with my kids, but there [00:54:00] are certainly times and situations in client conversations where. You know, it might, that tiny consequence might be helpful to shift your whole family, and it’s not going to damage your relationship. It’s not gonna damage your connection. But, no, I don’t think we wanna rely on them as a, as a way of being in relationship with our children.

Melissa: Yeah. 

Ashleigh: It doesn’t feel good. 

Melissa: No, 

Ashleigh: it doesn’t feel good. 

Melissa: Okay. Let’s pretend you have a magic wand now, and you could put one book in the school curriculum of every high school around the world. So this is for boys and girls, you know, that 16, 17-year-old, it could be on any topic, hun, any topic? 

Ashleigh: Oh, you’ve gotta give me this ahead of time so I can think about it.

I knew you were gonna ask a question about a book, but I, for teenagers, what would I give? Okay. I guess the one that comes to mind right now is the anxious generation, and it’s a. It’s by Jonathan Haight, and it is a book about the dangers of social media for [00:55:00] teenagers and their attention. And, and he talks about the different story of what it does to girls versus boys.

And I think, and, and the, and the pool is to prevent social media, keep it outta the hands of teenagers for as long as possible. And I think that if that could be a message we could get to them, that would probably be the one that comes to my mind right now. 

Melissa: I love that. I’ll link to it in the show notes.

And you know, it’s so interesting, the whole social media thing. I’m hoping our children’s generation, I hope that they’re just like. Why were you guys on that 

Ashleigh: thing? I’m really hoping that, we’ll, yeah, that’s, I’ve got my fingers crossed that this, I feel for teens these days, they’ve got it harder. They were the first kids on iPads.

Their parents didn’t question it. They had all had iPads when they were four, and now they’re the first teens with social media. And it just breaks my heart about the impact that that has on their wellbeing. And so I’m hoping by the time our kids are older, we’ll have, we’ll have [00:56:00] learned a few things.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Now I’ve shared an episode and I’ll link to it in the show notes where I spoke about how I’m raising my children screen free and without sugar and without gluten. And it went absolutely viral, babe. And it’s still going viral. It’s crazy. It’s so awesome. And so Bambi, I allow her to look at photos and videos of herself on my phone, on airplane mode, which she loves.

We don’t do it often. But she loves looking at videos and photos of herself and of Prince and I turn the, the brightness down and like I put it on flight mode and I put it on orange screen. So all the things anyway, allow her to do a bit of that. And the other day she said to me she was taking a photo.

It’s so interesting because like this morning they were so cute in bed and I was like taking mental photos in my head and then like I was like, oh, I really [00:57:00] wanna get a photo. And I was like, can I get a photo? And then I was like, smile. And then she’s like, oh, now I wanna take photos. And it’s like such a tricky thing.

You need to get the old school cameras. Like I thought about it, I’m like, I need to get an old school one. Anyway, she said to me the other day, she’s over four now. And she said, mom, what age do kids get phones? And I was like, where did you get that from? And I said, I laughed first. I firstly laughed. We don’t have a TV in our house.

And I was just laughing and I told Nick later and we’re both laughing and I laughed. And then I said, 18 baby. And she goes, 18. And then I said, actually, when you move out. And then she goes, move out. 

Ashleigh: Yeah. Well hold on now we need to talk about that. 

Melissa: Yeah. I was like, oh no, no. And I was like, oh, just nothing, nothing.

And I just changed the subject and we were just laughing and giggling, but I was like, I am literally going to delay it for as long as I possibly can for her. Like literally, I [00:58:00] don’t even know, but I’m sure she’ll be one of the last people to get a phone. 

Ashleigh: Well, don’t worry. Our kids need to be friends. And this is what Jonathan Haight says in his book is, is get a couple of other kids that you, of people who are similar, who will delay it.

’cause he said it’s really hard when you are genuinely the only kid. But if you can have a couple of other kids that can get together on a Friday night every week and have that, you know, catch up without phones, then there is at least a group of them that can withstand the pressure. But it’s incredibly challenging.

But also like, why we don’t, we want to model not giving into pressure either. Yes, it’s hard. Yes. It doesn’t feel good. And this is a decision that we make as the adults in charge of these children because it’s the best decision for them. 

Melissa: It is. Like, especially when they go to school. 

Ashleigh: But I say that as not a parent of a teenager.

I also wanna say how hard it will be in reality. 

Melissa: A hundred percent babe. Like I think about, you know, when they go to school and I wanna, I wanna talk to you about schooling as well, homeschooling and, and schooling. But the other thing is like when [00:59:00] they’re all, all their friends have phones and they don’t like, it’s so.

You know what I’ve noticed with Bambi is there’s been a few things where she’s like, well, why do some people smoke? And I’m like, ah. Like it’s, why do some people eat sugar? Like why do some people do have this or, you know, and it’s just, it’s a very fine line. Like you don’t wanna give too much information.

Like, it’s so tricky to navigate those sorts of conversations. And what I just always come back to, and I don’t even know if this is right, but I just say, this is what we choose to do in our family. You know, this is what we do, this is how we live, or this is how we eat, or things like that. And sometimes I just say, oh, because maybe they don’t know.

Or you know, they don’t know that smoking’s bad for them. I don’t know, like I’m just like, what do I say? 

Ashleigh: What do I say? And I think, I love that idea of like, this is, this, how we serve it as well is just, this is our choice in our family. And sometimes I even say to my kids, and when you grow up, [01:00:00] you’ll be able to make your own choices.

And they might be different from mine, and that’s okay too. But right now my job is to do what I think is best and this is what I’m making the decision around. And my kids will say, oh yeah, mom, when I’m bigger, I won’t do it either. Or maybe I’ll have lollies on my birthday or, but it’ll just be on my birthday.

And we have these really cute conversations because I want them to know, this is our family culture. This is what’s important to us, and I’m going to own that and model that to you. And also you might make different decisions, and that’s okay, because I will still love and adore you no matter what you decide.

There will be that freedom for you to make that choice later, but right now it’s my choice. 

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s, that’s my role as your mama is to keep you healthy and happy and safe. You know, all those 

Ashleigh: things. And I think if we are living a life in alignment and we have a family filled with love and we are living our truth, I don’t think that they resent that.

They just see that just makes sense to them. There’s no, but when we’re wobbly, when we haven’t worked on our own [01:01:00] stories, when our stuff’s coming up and we’re not sure whether we say yes or no, that’s when they kind of can feel that. 

Melissa: Absolutely. So you currently homeschool. What’s your plan with homeschooling?

Like Steiner Montessori? Would love to hear your thoughts. ’cause I get asked about this all the time. 

Ashleigh: Yeah. Honestly, I don’t know. Right now it works for our family and so we will continue to do what works for our family until it doesn’t. That’s always been my. My stance with my children is like, what is working this year?

Because they change so much and they change so quickly. And right now it’s, it’s a beautiful life for us. We both work from home. We both work flexibly. We get to swap in and out, and I just, I love it right now. I love it, but that may not be the case always. And then what school will I send my children to?

There is, I don’t know, I’m I, I like the screen free nature of Steiner. I think that that is a big draw card, but [01:02:00] there are some other downsides of that that I don’t necessarily love. I think. You know, if I could, if I could just create my own school, which I never would, I think the, the challenge with schools is that they’re just too long and too many days.

Too many days. And so we’re trying to hold, okay, I need my child to learn. So they do need to kind of follow rules and listen to the teacher, but also because it’s all day my kid needs to play and then they need to have fun. So now I’m trying to morph all these things in together and it’s just a little bit of a mess sometimes where, you know, these progressive, newer schools are trying to do everything.

And I think that sometimes then we are losing. We are just losing the basics. And so I, I would love to be able to send my kids to school for like two or three hours a day and go listen to the teacher, like follow instructions, do. This is not the time to be a kid, but then come home and climb a tree and be a kid and have the freedom.

But I think trying to put the freedom in the school system, but then trying to keep it a school system is a really tricky [01:03:00] mix that I think I, I don’t know what the, what the best answer is, but right now for us, this is it. 

Melissa: Yes. And Monday to Friday, nine till three. Like what? No way. This is where I’m at.

I’m like, oh, like maybe three days a week for a couple of hours or small days. Just the morning. Yeah, just the morning. And then I can get some work done. Like just the morning, like not all day. Like it’s too much. And so many people say like their children come home from school and they’re exhausted and then they’ve gotta go to afternoon activities.

And I’m like. When would you see them like that? It’s just, it’s so tricky. It’s so tricky. So do you follow a homeschooling curriculum or is it just led by you guys? How does it work? 

Ashleigh: Yeah, no, I just, my fo my focus right now is teaching him to read and teaching him to write and spell. And so we just do a little bit every day.

I taught him to read. It didn’t take long actually. This is the, this is the beauty of like [01:04:00] one-on-one time rather than being in a classroom. So it, you know, we spend 20 minutes a day on reading. He learnt to read in six months. It just wasn’t that big of a deal for us. And I understand that some kids have some, some learning challenges, but overall when you get to target the learning and I didn’t make it fun, you know, this is something that probably goes the opposite of what I normally say about, it’s so important for kids to play.

I didn’t make it fun. I didn’t make it song and dance about it. I didn’t try and turn it into games. This is what we’re doing for 20 minutes and you’re going to focus and we’re going to sit down and we’re going to have some discipline to learn this skill. And then you can go and be a kid and play.

Because I find that this, like trying to morph play into learning, like learning is inherently motivating. If there is, like he wants to learn to read. We read, he sees books everywhere he’s been read to for his life, I think. Yeah. So I didn’t turn it into this big thing. It was just short, sharp lessons. We do a bit of reading, a bit of handwriting, a bit of spelling with the handwriting, spelling it together.[01:05:00] 

I’ve let maths go for for now because he gets so much of it naturally. My husband’s an engineering maths brain and so the way they even talk is in timestables and all kinds of things. So I’ve just kind of let that go for now ’cause he’s only seven and I, I just generally check in with that. I’m always curious, checking in with what would he be learning in the Australian system?

And I go, oh, his miles ahead. So he just gets to be able to be a kid for. 90% of the day, and then one hour of the day we just do some focus learning and that’s it. 

Melissa: Beautiful. And your 4-year-old, does he kind of tag along to that or does he just do his own thing? 

Ashleigh: He wants to, he’s like, teach me to read and I’m, no, you’re four play.

It’s like, and I, I think that that’s part of the problem is we try and teach kids too early and it drags out this process. It makes learning to read these multiple years. You’ve gotta learn your letters and you’ve gotta, like, I just, I, I never did that with my eldest. We started at six and then it was pretty much done at six and a half.

And so I will, even though my four year old’s much more interested, he’s little and [01:06:00] he’s, he doesn’t really need it yet. So as much as I can encourage him to play instead, and that’s always my, my preference. 

Melissa: Yeah. Beautiful. Okay. Let’s talk about how you fill yourself up. Talk about like what do you do for your morning routine?

What does it look like with two little kids at home, a business? Can you give us a little quote unquote, typical day in your life? 

Ashleigh: Yeah, there is no such thing as a typical day. It changes. I used to love a routine, but that’s all being thrown out the window. So it is, uh, constant chopping and changing of, okay, my husband’s got the kids, I’m working.

Then I’ll take the kids to something that I really wanna do with them, like, you know, a little play group or a catch up with friends at the beach, and so he’ll do the work then. And so really it’s just, we’re, we’re just constantly changing and I’ve just picked the things in my kids’ week that feel really important for me to be at.

So there’s a little playgroup for my 4-year-old, and there’s something else for my 7-year-old that I really [01:07:00] love going to him with. So I pick the things in my week and then I make my work fit around that. And sometimes that means my work happens at nighttime, or it sometimes it means it happens, you know, on weekends.

It’s not this perfect situation. But I, I value the flexibility and I value being able to. To be there at the things that feel really important to me and I don’t wanna let that go. So then other things can sometimes be sa be, be changed around. But I find that I actually, you know, my most cup feeling times hanging out with my friends, with my kids around like that is for me that pure integration of all of us getting our, our needs met and the kids are playing, they’re happy, they’re satisfied, they’re outside in the sunshine.

I’m getting to talk to the other moms and that to me is just soul feeling and I love it. 

Melissa: Yes. Yeah. That’s my social life at the moment. It’s at the beach on the weekend with our friends and kids or, yeah, that’s just how it is at the moment and that’s okay. It’s just a season, so I love that. Okay. I’ve got [01:08:00] three rapid fire questions for you now.

Are you ready? 

Ashleigh: Okay. 

Melissa: What’s one thing that we can do today for our health? 

Ashleigh: Not resist the dependence our children need. I think that that would fill us up. A spiritual, emotional, and, and physical way when we stop resisting what our kids need as a society, I don’t mean, but also individually. Yeah. 

Melissa: Mm.

Beautiful. What’s one thing we can do for more wealth in our life? So more abundance in all areas of our life. 

Ashleigh: I think practice, family, integrated living. Learn how to get our needs met alongside of our family rather than trying to separate our lives into, I do this at this point, and then my kid does this at this point.

And I think that the more that we could flow into family integrated living, our needs get met at the same time as our kids. And I think that that is what, that’s true abundance. [01:09:00] 

Melissa: Yes. And that’s something we’ve always asked each other ever since. I have a stepson who is 19, and we’ve always said like, how can everyone’s needs get met here?

How can mine, how can Nick’s, how can Leo’s? And now we’ve got two others. Like how can everyone. Everyone feel really good about this decision or whatever it is. And it’s such a simple question, but it really does move the needle. Last one, what is one thing we can do for more love in our life? Nurture our 

Ashleigh: babies.

Hold them close. Don’t buy into this idea of forcing separation, forcing independence, the rules, and just embrace the season and keep our babies close. I wonder what would happen in a generation of, of truly honoring the needs of babies, how that would flow out to their life, our lives. Everybody’s lives.

Melissa: Mm. So good. So beautiful. Yeah. Imagine. [01:10:00] Imagine the world and just how different it would be if you know that was what everyone was doing. Mm. This has been so amazing. I could talk to you for seven days straight. Is there anything else you wanna share with us that you feel is important or any last parting words of wisdom?

Ashleigh: I think we just need to have, have compassion for ourselves. I think that this is a really tricky juggle and I think we are trying so hard to do it differently, and I think it’s really important to remember that there are foundational needs for kids and us, and we don’t have to be perfect. And that sometimes we get caught up in this idea of perfection.

And really it’s, it’s not about perfection, it’s about getting the basics right. And so I know sometimes when we can have these conversations it can sound like we’re trying to be perfect or women need to be perfect or mums need to do it all. And it really, I just wanna leave with that idea that that’s not at all what we are saying.

And it really is about basic [01:11:00] relationships and basic attunement and, and don’t, don’t start worrying about perfection. 

Melissa: Mm-hmm. 

Ashleigh: There’s no such thing. No, and kids don’t need it. Like, it just, it’s not a thing and kids don’t need it, even if it was a thing. And so I think I want to be able to have deep important conversations without women thinking that we’re trying to hold them to an impossible standard.

Melissa: And that’s all we can do. It’s all 

Ashleigh: our kids 

Melissa: need. Exactly. Exactly. You are helping so many people. You are serving so many people with your work. So I wanna honor you and thank you for that. I wanna know what I and the listeners can do to give back and serve you today. How can we serve you? Oh, thank you.

Ashleigh: Just jump on and follow me on Instagram at raising humankind. Sign up for my e I’ll drop my email list. That’s probably the place where I share the most raw and, you know, long, long form content these days is what my brain needs, not these quick little Instagram reels. So, jumping on my email [01:12:00] list and, and being able to.

Yeah, share stories together and, and have deeper conversations via email. So I, we’ll link that below and I can share that with you. 

Melissa: Yes, go to raising humans kind.com and on Instagram, connect with Ashley, jump on her email list and come and let both of us know what your biggest key takeaway was from this conversation.

I loved it. I feel so inspired to be just an even better mother, and not for anyone else, but for me and my children. Like it’s just, it’s so important to me. It’s such a priority for me, and I loved learning and hearing all of this wisdom from you today because it’s just inspired me even more. So thank you for being here.

Thank you for all the work that you do. Thank you for being my friend. Thank you for being a trailblazer and for all the wisdom that you shared today. 

Ashleigh: Thank you. Thanks for having me on. It’s been a beautiful 

Melissa: conversation.[01:13:00] 

This episode has inspired me to be an even better parent, and I hope it has for you too. And if you loved this conversation, please subscribe and follow the show and leave me a review on Apple Podcasts and send me a screenshot of your review to hello@melissaramini.com. And I will send you my wildly wealthy guided meditation totally free.

As a thank you for taking the time to leave me a review. I’m so grateful that you are here. This is one of the top podcasts in the world, and I’m just so grateful that you take the time to come and listen each week. And now come and tell me on Instagram at Melissa Ambrosini, what your biggest key takeaway was from this episode.

I love hearing from you and I love connecting with you. And before I go, I just wanted to say thank you so much for being here, for wanting to be the best, the healthiest, and the happiest version of yourself, and for showing up today for you. You rock. Now, if [01:14:00] there is someone in your life that you can think of that would really benefit from this episode, I think every parent and parent to be would benefit from this episode.

But what you can do is take a screenshot of it, share it on your social media, email it to them, text it to them. Just do whatever you’ve got to do to get this in their ears. And until next time, don’t forget that love is sexy. Healthy is liberating, and wealthy isn’t a dirty word.

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